Preview: 2009 Shimano Saint
Thursday, June 26th, 2008
Digging the new Saint gruppo
Shimano invited us to check out their 2009 Saint gruppo in Whistler a few weeks ago. We got to check out what the new and hopefully improved gruppo had to offer. See what our thoughts were as well as more details inside on their newest Saint gruppo.
To know where you’re going, you have to know where you’ve been. It helps to have a knowledgeable background on what was before it and to say the Saint gruppo has come a long way would be an understatement. Almost every component in the new m810 Saint groppo has a clear vision of improvement in functionality, weight, and strength over the older m800 Saint gruppo.
The test bed for our 2009 Saint gruppo was the Cove STD (Skinnies, Trannies, Drops)
Shifters (SL-M810)
The shifters are reworked and it’s clear Shimano took some features from the previous Saint shifters (shorter paddles) and combined that with a few of the current XT/XTR features. The shifter can be adjusted on the clamp itself in a similar fashion to Sram shifters to deliver a wide variety of shifter positions. The one ailment of using smaller paddles makes removing the gear cable bolt a bit harder as the space to fit a screwdriver in between can be a little tight. As you can see below, the shifter tucks quite nicely underneath the Saint brake lever.
The Saint shifters can be adjusted further inboard or outboard via two 3mm allens
The shifter tucks nicely underneath the lever
The shifting also features a 2-way system so you can down shift in the normal Shimano fashion with your index finger, or push the lever with your thumb. Whether you like the classic Shimano trigger shifting methods or the push method of Sram, this new Saint shifter can do it all.
The lack of dual down shift (XTR can down shift twice with one stroke) is one downhillers won’t likely miss as unplanned double down shifts aren’t even a thought as you’re concentrating on maneuvering down the hill. When paired with the new Saint rear derailleur, shift pressure is increased in comparison to an XTR or even XT setup. While it doesn’t feel bad, it is something not typically prevalent when riding top end Shimano shifters and derailleurs.
Weight:
| Part | Year | Real(g) | Pic. |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2009 Saint SL-M810 Front Shifter | 2008 | 114 |  |
| 2009 Saint SL-M810 Rear Shifter | 2008 | 121 | |
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Rear Derailleur (RD-M810)
The vision behind the Shadow technology implemented in XT and XTR have clearly influenced the new Saint lineup. The new Saint rear derailleur utilizes the Shadow technology in a medium cage(GS) and a small cage variant(SS). The new Saint derailleur will not allow the derailleur to clock froward past a certain point so the derailleur won’t be banging the chain stays on rough terrain. Additionally the Saint derailleur has a very tight profile to aid in giving more clearance between obstacles and vulnerable objects similar to the other Shimano Shadow derailleurs.
The 2009 Saint short cage rear derailleur gets the Shadow treatment
2009 Shadow technology reduces the derailleur profile to avoid damage
The rear derailleur also comes with a mode conversion that allows the derailleur to work with compact (23 - 28t low gear) cassettes or mountain cassettes (32 - 34t low gear). Since our setup was using an 11-28t SLX cassette (CS-HG80), the mode selector had to be removed. The pieces are small and pretty easy to misplace if you’re not careful. It includes two 2mm Allen bolts and a small spacer.
Mode adjust allows for mountain cassettes or compact cassettes to be used
The rear derailleur also has a nice integrated skid plate to help protect the derailleur as well, which is very nice to see on parts that often sees a beating on a gravity oriented bike.
The derailleur features a 10% stiffer spring than the XT/XTR Shadow derailleurs and is noticeably quite clicky in actuation in comparison to Shimano’s non-Shadow derailleurs and even their other Shadow derailleurs.
The derailleur has performed quite well so far on the Cove STD and didn’t prove to be too noisy. The rear derailleur can still make noise on its own as the derailleur is held forward by chain tension. Relieving and then regaining chain tension can essentially cause any Shadow derailleur to make noise on itself.
While we didn’t get a chance to fully test out the double setup they have designed (double specific front derailleur) it is a very relevant and timely component that is needed as more and more people are running double setups on their trail and all mountain bikes. The new front derailleur offers some very nice features that help to not only keep the chain on the chainrings but help properly take advantage of a two ring system in giving additional clearance and better shifting.
Weight:
| Part | Year | Real(g) | Pic. |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2009 Saint RD-M810 GS (Medium Cage) Rear Derailleur | 2009 | 246 | |
| 2009 Saint RD-M810 SS (Short Cage) Rear Derailleur | 2009 | 233 | |
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Cranks (FC-M815)
The cranks were clearly reworked quite a bit and it shows. Lighter and stronger is something every company typically strives to do when refining a product but often can miss the mark. Shimano not only made these new cranks lighter, but stronger. If there’s one thing Shimano has typically done well it’s been their cranks and these Saint cranks deliver. They have used Duralumin (Hollowtech II) that was previously only used on XTR/Dura Ace cranks. Shimano claims these are twice as stiff as XT’s and it certainly feels stiff!
The 2009 Saint crankset gets slimmer and new graphics
The Saint specific bashguard worked well during the ride and took a few minor impacts well. The Honeycomb look is quite nice but can also become a collection plate for mud and grime. The bash was pretty light as a result of the cutouts. The crankset is available in a double 22/36 or a single ring setup with 34 - 42t offerings in even steps.
2009 Saint bashguard
Honeycomb style on the backside
The Saint chain ring also saw some revisions and additional machining to make it lighter than the previous chain rings. More chain ring sizes are available (34-42t in even number increments). The cranks will be available in 165mm, 170mm, and 175mm.
There are a few additional noteworthy changes however that are worth mentioning that on the surface might not be as apparent. The spider as you might be able to see is reworked and fitting an after market bash ring on these cranks probably won’t happen (or be easy) until the chain guide companies start to make Saint specific bash rings as the spider has significantly wider chain ring mounting tabs.
An upgraded spider to help strengthen the chain ring tabs
Single ring chain guides that don’t mount a bash guard to the cranks, like the e.thirteen LG.1, won’t feel the effects of this as they don’t require a bash guard to be mounted to the spider or aid in the chain guides retention functionality. Additionally, you can also see how these Saint cranks will require no grinding of the granny ring tabs to fit a chain guide properly which is a nice bonus.
A solution (and one implemented on the Cove STD) was to use the Shimano Saint bash ring with the e.thirteen SRS backplate with some minor modifications. Using a Gamut style guide might prove to be quite difficult/impossible with these new Saint cranks until they make a Saint specific bash guard as using a Gamut bash guard will have the bash quite a bit further out from the chain.
Additionally Shimano has changed the stock Allen 5mm chain ring bolts to a Torx 30 which is an additional tool you’ll have to remember to bring along (or swap out the bolts to a 5mm).
Classic pinch bolts and an aluminum knob
The cranks remain a two-bolt pinch style which was great to see with an aluminum compression knob. A deeper bottom bracket cup is also included to have more threads contacting the frame for some additional security.
These new Saint cranks were a treat to ride once they were set up. The additional ankle clearance was quite nice especially on an 83mm BB shell. It gave not only better ankle clearance but they felt slightly narrower which should increase the potential for more power to be applied to the pedals. The cranks were solid and it’s clear they’ve lost no strength while reducing a little bit of weight as well.
Weight:
| Part | Year | Real(g) | Pic. |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2009 Saint FC-M815 170mm 83mm Crank Arms | 2009 | 762 | |
| 2009 Saint 83mm Bottom Bracket Cups | 2009 | 89 | |
| 2009 Saint 83mm Bottom Bracket Sleeve | 2009 | 7 | |
| 2009 Saint 36t Chainring | 2009 | 70 | |
| 2009 Saint torx30 Chainring Bolts | 2009 | 10 | |
| 2009 Saint Honeycomb Bashring | 2009 | 135 | |
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Brakes (BR-M800 / BR-M810)
This is an area where it seems every company has been stepping up and Shimano is no different. Starting at the levers, they’ve been reworked and are quite reminiscent of the new XT/XTR style mid/high pivot location and feature aluminum reach adjustment as well as an free stroke (adjustable pad contact point) screw.
The new Saint brake lever looks familiar on the surface
The Saint levers have a new lever as well that felt pretty decent. I’m not sure if I personally like the way the lever travels upon actuation but the feel of the Shimano Servowave technology is quite impressive. Looking at the lever more, you can see that there are a good bit of screws as well on the lever in general and the one piece clamp means you’ll have to remove your grips to install or remove them.
Shandro demonstrates the Saint lever actuation
Using the Saint servowave lever with the new 4 piston calipers and high power hose proved to be predictable and trustworthy from the instant I pulled the levers for the first time. The caliper is clearly reworked and if you’ve used the M755 4pot XT calipers, these have a reminiscent if not more powerful feel to them. The complete system garnished an impressive controlled braking experience, while still retaining tank like stopping performance. The banjo is positioned cleanly away from harms way as well.
The new Saint 4 Piston Caliper
The Saint calipers have an increased fluid capacity for the less caustic mineral oil as well as utilizing two different sized pistons to help control the power and pad wear. No top loading pads however.
The new Saint 4 Piston Caliper has two different sized pistons
Overall the brake system worked near flawlessly outside of some ambient squealing they seemed to develop after getting broken in. The calipers come with metallic pads and these are typically louder than organic pads so some noise was expected but we’ll be trying out some different rotors to see if we can alleviate some of the squealing. While some squealing can often be felt in the lever itself as a shuddering gobble, the Saint brakes did not feel this way which was good.
Brakes are one of the key parts on a gravity bike and the Saint brakes instill confidence. The brakes felt best under heavy braking (or last minute braking) but didn’t feel like they lost too much modulation in the slower sections that required a bit more finesse. It was easy to feel / predict the power of the brakes (especially at speed) and that is something a lot of brakes often lack.
Setting them up was easy with the Shimano mechanics and proper tools there but overall a solid bleed technique is a key part of making brakes perform to their potential. Additionally its worth mentioning that Shimano will be offering these new Saint brakes in a pre-bled package so no more having to build the system yourself. I’d like to have seen the free stroke screw be a more adjustable knob and have a better influence on the overall feel and setup. Essentially the free stroke was set and then ignored in setup as we adjusted the bleed to control the feel of the brakes for the most part.
The brakes could’ve been a bit lighter if a mono body system was used as well as possibly getting a bit more power out of the brakes. They come in at a very respectable weight given the amount of power they offered. While the open trails at Whistler didn’t offer the best locale to test long continued braking they never showed signs of fading or varying lever actuation.
Weight:
| Part | Year | Real(g) | Pic. |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2009 Saint Front Brake w/metallic pads | 2009 | 329 | |
| 2009 Saint Rear Brake w/metallic pads | 2009 | 342 | |
| 2009 Saint BR-M810 Caliper w/metallic pads | 2009 | 149 | |
| 2009 Saint BL-M800 Brake Lever | 2009 | 135 | |
| 2009 Saint Metallic Pads | 2009 | 29 | |
| 2009 Saint BR-M810 Caliper Only | 2009 | 121 | |
| 2009 Saint 203mm Centerlock Rotor | 2009 | 197 | |
| 2009 Saint 180mm Centerlock Rotor | 2009 | 153 | |
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Hubs
The Saint wheels were laced up to some restickered DT Swiss rims. The front hub features angular contact bearings. The use of these bearings are seen in some frames (Knolly’s) to help alleviate side loads that cartridge bearings can’t absorb quite as well. The front hub also now accepts a “standard” centerlock rotor instead of the Saint oversized front centerlock.
A new Saint front hub uses a standard sized centerlock rotor and an external BB tool to remove the lockring
The rear hub features a micro ratchet freehub and now and has 36pt engagement which was nice to see carried over from XT/XTR. Previous Shimano hubs often had only 18 engagement points and as such felt lacking in comparison to higher end hubs. The improvements to their hubs in sealing and engagement help to bring the Saint hubs into contention with the nicer after market hubs. While still a little bit heavy in comparison to some of the lighter hubs out there, these new Saint hubs are much lighter than previous Shimano Saint hubs and are better in just about every way.
new Saint rear hub
Weight:
| Part | Year | Real(g) | Pic. |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2009 Saint 32h 20mm Front Hub | 2009 | 226 | |
| 2009 Saint 32h Rear Hub 12 x 150 36pt engagement | 2009 | 372 | |
| 2009 Saint 12 x 150 Axle | 2009 | 169 | |
| 2009 Saint Rear Centerlock Nut | 2009 | 9 | |
| 2009 Saint 20mm Front Centerlock Nut | 2009 | 10 | |
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Pricing (MSRP)
Brakes
- BL-M800 brake levers only $250
- BL-M800 complete front or rear brake pre-bled $275
Derailleurs
- RD-M810 rear rerailleur $185
- FD-M815/817 front Derailleur $75
Shifters
- SL-M810 shifter set $200
Cranks
- FC-M810 Crankset Single Ring $300
- FC-M810 Crankset Double $425
- FC-M815 Crankset Single Ring $325
- FC-M810 Crankset Double Ring $450
Hubs
- HB-M810 front 20mm hub $110
- FH-M810 135mm rear hub $200
- FH-M815 150mm rear hub $210
The Complete System
Overall I was pretty impressed with the changes and improvements Shimano has made to the new Saint lineup. The brakes from a performance standpoint are possibly the best they’ve done for a downhill brakeset once you get used to the lever pull. The shifting was crisp but had a few minor areas where improvement could be made to quiet the drivetrain a little bit more. The cranks felt solid and were predictable but some consideration needs to be taken before deciding if these cranks are right for you and your application. As a gruppo they’ve done quite well. The perhaps final piece of the puzzle will be to develop a tubeless or DH rim to mount their Saint hubs to complete their package.
Shimano has done a nice job in my opinion in the changes and features they’ve made to the Saint lineup and while some issues are there, there aren’t any major make or break issues with the new gruppo. I suspect many of you will be pleased once you get to try it out for yourself.
Expect to see a lot of Saint equipped bikes next year not only on the OEM level, but on Trail bikes, and FR/DH bikes alike. It’s truly a well thought out gruppo that has taken into consideration many issues that the bashers, crashers, and racers desire in a gruppo.
Special thanks to Shimano for their warm hospitality and Gabe at Cove Bikes for supplying the STD frame to test out the new Saint products.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Thanks for the article. It’s the most comprehensive write-up I’ve seen yet. Looking forward to giving the new Saint a go myself.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:40 am
How are the brakes in comparison to the codes?
June 26th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Additional info:
- The more firm shifter feel is intentional. The Saint shifter is a
direct descendant of the prior generation short lever shifter and was
designed with a ton of input from guys like Brian Lopes who found that
with the shorter lever it was easier to accidentally “bump” shift the
lever (especially with the particularly short throw). The more firm
detents give the rider the ability to have that quick shift, but also
make sure that every shift is intentional
- The mode adjuster for the rear derailleur does not have to be removed
for the tighter cogsets, but removing it allows the derailleur to track
the cogs more closely for better shifting. The derailleur will still
work for a tight cogset with the adjuster in, it just offers that last
bit of precision tuning by removing the limit for the forward travel of
the guide pulley
- One of the big advantages for using the standard size Center Lock on
the new hubs aside from compatibility with all other Shimano CL rotors
is the availability of six bolt adapter to run rotors for other brake
systems if desired.
June 26th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Brian Lopes runs Hayes!
June 26th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
I didn’t know Hayes made shifters..
June 26th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
Are the hubs quiet? There doesn’t seem to be many high end hubs around that aren’t clickey noisey while freewheeling.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:05 am
I want one of those shovels!
June 27th, 2008 at 12:27 am
Impresive, specialy those hubs and the rear der. They are going to sell fast.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:16 am
Sethimus - What specifically are you looking for in terms of how they compare? There could be a novel written on it.
Jeff - Yea, the hubs are near silent when they freewheel.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:52 am
cool.. thanks for the write up… I’ll follow-up on Sethimus’ question: raw power and modulation?
Also… are you planning on doing a write-up of the STD… that bike really intrigues me, but I can’t find much information on it….
again, thanks for the great write-up…
June 27th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Try DT Swiss for Hubs. I have the 440FR and the are silent. Not cheap mind.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
How much adjustment is there in the brakes? I noticed on the XT’s you adjust the lever (lever reach?) so the lever sits really close to the bar.
Is this possible with the Saints aswell? I like my lever to sit close to the bar and have a short throw( i think is the word) which the codes do not provide for me.
The whole groupset looks sick, Might be a big upgrade in the future for a full saint groupset.
Great writeup aswell.
June 28th, 2008 at 9:13 am
You should be able to get the Saint levers just as close.
June 29th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
does anybody know if there will be color options for the crank bolts and bb cups?
June 29th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
There are no additional color options.
As far as a power comparison, they personally feel like they have less initial bite than code’s and have as much if not more power.
A Cove STD Review is possible, but I didn’t get a ton of time on it to tinker as the focus was the Saint Gruppo.
July 1st, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Thanks for the great review - would like to know if there is a difference in the spider between the single and double ring cranks - is the picture of the singles? (will you have to grind down the granny studs on the double set if using with a chainguide?)
Also, happy to see the bash ring will work with an SRS guide - what ‘modifications’ did you have to make to get it to fit? I hope they aren’t too hard!
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Didn’t pay too much attention to the double ring setup. The picture is of the single setup. Why would you buy the double set if you’re using a chainguide? I do not think you will have to file anything on the crankarms as the granny posts are flush.
The backplate we filed a little bit to fit better. It doesn’t mean every bike will have to be filed, but this one did.
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:02 am
thanks for the info, cant wait to get a set of ‘09 Saints; may get double ring for versatility - incase I decide to use a front derailleur again.
July 6th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Do you know when the new line will be available?
July 7th, 2008 at 8:14 am
Expect to be able to purchase it around Aug/Sept
July 19th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Hey sicklines. Love the site
a quick question. I’m looking to replace my SRAM shit because its really heavy on the thumb to shift up. Now i know the XT shadown doesn’t have this problem because I’ve ridden one befor but what i want to know is how the saint compares to the XT. is it really hard to up shift. I would rather a short cage XT but they don’t make one so im looking into a Saint i just don’t want to have the same problem as before.
Hope you guys can help me out
Cheers
Brent
July 19th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Hey Brent,
The Saint derailleur does require a little bit more push than the Shadow XT but it’s not too hard. If you’re running a close ratio cassette its a better working option as well.
July 23rd, 2008 at 2:46 am
thanks god for the saints… tnx to you shimano… such quality products u have…keep it up!!!
August 25th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
i have that shovel
August 29th, 2008 at 6:25 am
At last I’ve found a website with detailed tests - fantastic. This is a long shot, but here goes: I currently run the old Saint cranks with the stock 22/32 rings & bashguard. I’m interested in buying the new cranks and would like to use 22/32 on them. I think there are going to be 2 options to try for the 32 ring:
1.The old Saint M800 32 ring (same as XT M760) .
2. The current M770 XT 32 ring steel/carbon.
If you have these bits available would it be possible to see if either ones fit? I’m hoping there are no interface problems.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Both should work fine Rodney on the new M810 cranks.
September 1st, 2008 at 5:39 pm
I wonder if I could run the new levers with the reach/pad contact adjustment with an older 2-piston Saint caliper.
September 1st, 2008 at 6:03 pm
You should be able to run that setup. You should note however that the pad contact screw isn’t as adjustable though in comparison to some other brake manufacturers.
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Can I run the 08 XT levers (BR-775?) with the new Saint calipers?
What is the difference between the XT and the Saint levers?
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
A few of the differences: They’ve got metal (gold) adjuster vs the plastic ones on the xt. The lever blade itself is also shaped differently.
September 3rd, 2008 at 7:37 pm
So other than cosmetics, and the adjuster, they’re identical?
September 3rd, 2008 at 7:52 pm
I wouldn’t call lever ergonomics or an aluminum reach adjuster cosmetic. Also I believe there is a bigger reservoir on the Saint but double check with Shimano if you’re interested in a complete comparison.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:35 am
i want it!!
October 5th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I was just curious as to how someone with the older Saint derailleur that is direct mount would go about putting the new one on? Would it just be all a drop out and a bolt at the end of the axle? Or would a whole new hub be needed?
Thanks.
October 5th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
You won’t need a new hub. You would just use the a regular axle for the bike, then bolt on the derailleur to the bike’s rear derailleur hanger as if it were any other bike.
October 6th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Ohh sweet, that’s what I was thinking but I wasn’t 100% sure.
Thanks a bunch for the help, I really appreciate it.
November 24th, 2008 at 10:05 am
I recently upgraded my old 2007 XT rear der and shifter to the 09 Saint and the difference is night and day! Shifting is AS SMOOTH if not SMOOTHER than Sram X0 (and that system always impressed me). Killer looks and a cinch to set up. 10/10 - grab one while you can, they go out-of-stock with suppliers real quick!